A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, August 10, 2025 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JONATHAN KARL, ABC “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR: It's finally happening. Five days from now, Trump and Putin in Alaska. Will they make a deal to stop the fighting in Ukraine? And if they do, will Zelenskyy go along with it? THIS WEEK starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'll do whatever I can to stop the killing.
KARL: President Trump and Vladimir Putin agree to Ukraine peace talks in Alaska.
TRUMP: President Putin, I believe, wants to see peace, and Zelenskyy wants to see peace.
KARL: But President Zelenskyy flatly rejects giving up territory for peace.
TRUMP: There will be some swapping of territories to the betterment of both.
KARL: This morning, Mary Bruce and Martha Raddatz on the Alaska summit. NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte, and former Trump National Security Adviser John Bolton, who was there in the room for Trump's last summit with Putin.
Retribution. Another purge at the FBI. And alarming revelation about a former January 6th defendant now working as a senior adviser at the Justice Department.
JARED WISE, JANUARY 6 RIOTER: You are the Nazi. You are the Gestapo!
KARL: Chris Christie and Sarah Isgur on the legal fallout. And political analysis from Donna Brazile and Reince Priebus.
And --
One of the biggest collections of spy gadgets in the world is behind this door, and we got a look.
We pull back the curtain on decades of espionage and spy craft, as we go inside the new vault at the International Spy Museum.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it's THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.
KARL: Good morning. Welcome to THIS WEEK.
It's been more than seven years since Donald Trump convened a summit meeting with Vladimir Putin. That last meeting in Helsinki was seen by many, including some Trump allies, as a low point of his first term. Notable for Trump's warm embrace of Putin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (July 2018): I have President Putin. He just said it's not Russia. I will say this, I don't see any reason why it would be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: Helsinki became a symbol of Trump's approach to the Russian dictator. He praised him, but almost never criticized him. As Trump prepares to meet with Putin again, this time convening on American territory, the Trump/Putin relationship seems different. At least in Trump's public pronouncements, he is no longer reluctant to criticize Putin. In fact, lately, he has seemed genuinely frustrated with Russia's actions and unafraid to say so.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (May 25, 2025): And I'm not happy with what Putin's doing. He's killing a lot of people. And I don't know what the hell happened to Putin. I've known him a long time. Always gotten along with him. But he's sending rockets into cities and killing people. And I don't like it at all, OK? He's killing a lot of people. I don't know what's wrong with him. What the hell happened to him, right?
TRUMP (July 8, 2025): We get a lot of (EXPLETIVE DELETED) thrown at us by Putin, you want to know the truth. He's very nice all the time, but it turns out to be meaningless.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: Of course, it's policy, not words, that matter. But on the policy front, too, Trump has taken steps that have rattled Moscow, agreeing to supply U.S. arms to Ukraine, that is as long as Europe pays for them, and threatening stiff sanctions, both on Russian banks and on India if it doesn't stop buying Russian oil.
What it will amount to in Alaska is entirely uncertain. Trump has had even tougher words for President Zelenskyy than he has had for Putin. Some of Ukraine's advocates, both here and in Europe, are worried about what Trump may agree to.
We start this morning with our chief White House correspondent, Mary Bruce.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARY BRUCE, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This week, President Trump announced the most high-stakes diplomatic gambit of his second term.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to have a meeting with Russia.
BRUCE (voice over): “The highly anticipated meeting between myself, as president of the United States of America, and President Vladimir Putin of Russia,” Trump announced on social media, “will take place next Friday, August 15, 2025, in the great state of Alaska.”
The announcement came on the deadline day for Trump's ultimatum to the Russian leader, stop the fighting in Ukraine or face additional sanctions. The Alaska summit, which will be Putin's first trip to the United States in nearly a decade, and his first meeting with an American president in more than four years, allows Putin to avoid the new sanctions.
TRUMP: President Putin, I believe, wants to see peace, and Zelenskyy wants to see peace. Now, President Zelenskyy has to get all of his -- everything he needs because he’s going to have to get ready to sign something.
BRUCE (voice over): But Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, who Trump had pushed to include in the summit, is stuck on the sidelines, even as Trump suggested an exchange of territory is necessary for peace.
TRUMP: We're actually looking to get some back and some swapping. It's complicated.
There will be some swapping of territories to the betterment of both.
BRUCE (voice over): Hours later, Zelenskyy bluntly rejecting that idea, saying, “Ukrainians will not give their land to the occupier,” and, “any decisions that are made without Ukraine are at the same time decisions against peace. They will not achieve anything.”
Trump's announcement comes days after his special envoy, Steve Witkoff, met with Putin in Moscow. "The Wall Street Journal" reporting the Russian leader told Witkoff he would halt the war in exchange for eastern Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BRUCE (on camera): Now I'm told the president remains open to a summit with both Putin and Zelenskyy. But as of now, he's moving ahead with this one-on-one with just Vladimir Putin.
The move, though, is raising serious concerns that Ukraine could be sidelined in these negotiations. Overnight, European leaders issuing a joint statement saying, quote, “the path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine.”
Jon.
KARL: And, Mary, Vice President Vance and Ukrainian and European officials met in the U.K. What are you hearing about that meeting?
BRUCE: Well, U.S. officials tell us that this hours long hastily arranged meeting produced significant progress, but it is certainly clear that European leaders are concerned that Trump and Putin are going to try and negotiate an end to this war without them and without their input. The Europeans are stressing their commitment to Ukraine. They are adamant that Ukraine shouldn't have to hand over territory Moscow doesn't occupy and that any deal has to include security guarantees.
Jon.
KARL: All right, Mary Bruce, thank you.
Joining me now is ABC's chief global affairs correspondent and my THIS WEEK co-anchor, Martha Raddatz.
So, Martha, what is the significance of this meeting happening in Alaska? Putin, Trump, but no Zelenskyy.
MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT AND “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR: No Zelenskyy, but we know that President Trump has wanted to meet with Vladimir Putin for a long time. He likes that one on one.
If you remember, of course, in 2019, and 2018, he met with Kim Jong-un, North Korea's leader, once in Singapore and then in Vietnam. A lot of pomp and circumstance. Lots of attention. I can meet with these world leaders. That meeting came to absolutely nothing.
But Donald Trump did walk out of that meeting and he really, really wanted something from that meeting, some sort of nuclear deal. He got absolutely nothing. But he did, at that point, say, I am out of here.
Without Zelenskyy, Zelenskyy already, as Mary reported, has fought this. Like, what are you doing? Donald Trump really did want that tri-lateral meeting. He didn't get it. He said, OK. It's sort of, Jon, like this musical chairs of foreign policy, who he speaks to last, the berating Zelenskyy in the White House in February, and then Zelenskyy thinking, what in the world am I going to do with this relationship? And then he switches, and then it's Putin who’s the bad guy.
So, he kind of keeps these people guessing, and that is his foreign policy strategy in many ways.
KARL: Now, you interviewed Zelenskyy just a few months ago. You were recently in Russia. What -- what is your sense of the state of this war?
RADDATZ: I -- I think they are both having such tremendous losses. You go to Ukraine, it is devastating. I spent practically every night there in a bomb shelter, or most of those nights, in a massive hotel, and we all had to go to the bomb shelter every single night. Imagine that population every night. The losses are staggering on both sides. Russia has lost hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people. Ukraine has lost tens and tens of thousands. And you go there and you see the amputees. It is a completely different country. Zelenskyy wants this war to end, but he does not want to give up what he thinks is rightfully his.
We always have to remember, Russia invaded Ukraine, a sovereign country. So, that -- that’s the stakes of this. You just really have to remember how bad this is. Zelenskyy, when I left after interviewing him in June, said, what do you think your relationship is with Donald Trump? And he said, I'm not really sure at this point. I don't know what it is. So, you have this back and forth.
No one knows what is going to happen in Alaska, but if he tries to do it without Ukraine, I don't see how that works at all.
KARL: All right, Martha Raddatz, thank you very much.
RADDATZ: You bet.
KARL: Joining us now from The Hague is NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte.
Mr. Secretary General, thank you for joining us.
Let me just ask you the big question, what do you expect to come out of this Trump-Putin summit?
MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Well, first, Jon, thank you for having me on the program.
And I think it is important that the meeting takes place next Friday. President Trump broke a deadlock over -- with Putin in February, that was very important. He was the one delivering the big success at the NATO summit, the 5 percent spending commitments in June, one of the biggest foreign policy successes of the U.S. in the last couple of years.
And, of course, only a couple of weeks ago, he decided to, again, open the floodgates of lethal support into Ukraine and to put secondary sanctions on countries, like India.
So, he clearly is putting pressure on Putin. Next Friday will be important because it will be about testing Putin, how serious he is on bringing this terrible war to an end.
KARL: As I understand it, the European leaders are in agreement that there needs to be a ceasefire first before anything else, that -- that if Ukraine pulls out of any territory, Russia needs to pull out of a territory as well. And if -- if there is an agreement here, Ukraine must have security guarantees, including the possibility of sometime acceding to NATO membership.
Do you believe that Donald Trump is on board with all of that?
RUTTE: Well, I believe European leaders and Ukraine brought out a good statement last night after successful talks with Vice President Vance in London. It’s important that U.S. is engaging with European allies and with Ukraine to prepare for the meeting on Friday.
And, of course, when it comes to full-scale negotiations, and let’s hope that Friday will be an important step in that process, we need Ukraine at the table. It will be about territory. It will be, of course, about security guarantees, but also about the absolute need to acknowledge that Ukraine decides of its own future, that Ukraine has to be a sovereign nation, deciding on its own geopolitical future, of course, having no limitations to its own military troop levels, and for NATO to have no limitations on our presence on the Eastern flank in countries like Latvia, Estonia and Finland.
KARL: So -- so you’ve been clear about that just now. The European leaders have been clear about that. But do you believe that Donald Trump supports all of what you just said?
RUTTE: I do believe that. Donald Trump, the president, wants to end this. He wants to end the terrible loss of life. He wants to end the terrible damage being done to the infrastructure in Ukraine. So many people losing their lives, so much damage being done.
And, clearly, these two big issues have to be on the table. One is territory. And we have to acknowledge at this moment that Russia is controlling some of Ukrainian territory. And the question will be how to go forward past a ceasefire, including what it means in terms of security guarantees for Ukraine.
And let me add one important aspect here. When it comes to this whole issue of territory, when it comes to acknowledging, for example, maybe in a future deal that Russia is controlling de facto, factually, some of the territory of Ukraine, it has to be effectual recognition and not a political de jure recognition.
And we all remember that Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia have embassies in Washington between 1940 and 1991, acknowledging Soviet Union -- yes, controlling the territory, but never in terms of legally accepting that fact.
KARL: And very quickly, my next guest, Trump’s former national security adviser, John Bolton, says that this meeting comes at a very dangerous point for Ukraine and he fears that negotiations are sliding in Russia’s direction. Is there a risk that something is agreed to here that rewards Russia for its invasion of Ukraine?
RUTTE: No, I don’t think the risk is there. And all my respects for John, and please send him my best regards, but I would not agree on this point with him.
We have seen President Trump putting incredible pressure on Russia. What happened last week, the extra 25 percent tariffs on India, because we know that India is one of the biggest buyers of oil from and -- and other material from Russia. And this has had a huge impact to -- potentially on the Indian economy, and this is forcing them to be much more clear with Moscow on what they expect Putin to do when it comes to this war in Ukraine.
But also the fact that he opened the floodgates again when it comes to lethal weapons being delivered into Ukraine, paid by the Europeans but delivered by the Americans.
So, this is all clear evidence that President Trump is absolutely adamant to bring this war to an end, but also to keep maximum pressure on Putin. And next Friday will be important because it is testing Putin, how serious he is in this whole process, which will then have to continue after Friday, with Ukraine involved, with others involved, to bring this war to an end.
KARL: All right, NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte, thank you very much for joining us.
RUTTE: Thank you very much.
KARL: And here in the studio is the man who was with Donald Trump during that last Trump/Putin summit in Helsinki back in 2018, former National Security Adviser John Bolton.
You just heard there from the NATO secretary general. He says that he is convinced that Trump is going to hold -- is going to keep the pressure up on Putin, and this is a test for Putin. Do you agree with him?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I don't. I think Mark’s doing a great job. I would say that, except I hope I don't get him into trouble by saying it.
I think Trump has made some mistakes already, number one, in holding this meeting on American soil, legitimizing a pariah leader of a rogue state. Second, he's allowed Putin to get first mover advantage by putting his peace plan on the table first. You can already see from Trump's own statements he thinks that Zelenskyy has to make constitutional modifications for Ukraine to cede territory. Now, Zelenskyy has flatly rejected that.
But what Putin gets more than anything else is an opportunity, one on one, to try and get his magic working again with Trump, applying that KGB training. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, he pushed Trump further than Trump wanted to be pushed. And you saw the reaction.
What Putin wants to get back, he's not so worried about the sanctions, he wants the relationship back with Trump. We'll see if he gets it.
KARL: I mean, you were there in Helsinki and, as we said, I mean that was seen by you and by others as a real low point for Donald Trump in the first term. But, I mean, you've just alluded to it, his views towards Putin seem to have -- have changed, at least his publicly expressed views. I mean, he sounds, in many ways, entirely different than he did back then.
BOLTON: Well, I think it's gone up and down. And certainly it's been in a down period. That's what Putin wants to try and correct.
I think that -- that by -- by already pre-negotiating part of the Putin plan, Zelenskyy is going to be put in a position where he's going to be presented with something that Trump may feel very comfortable with. And then you could be back closer to where we were in February during the famous debacle in the Oval Office with Zelenskyy.
So, it's not inevitable, but I think this is a very risky meeting upcoming from the perspective, not just of Ukraine, but the Western alliance.
KARL: Ultimately, to get peace, does Ukraine, though, have to give up some of that territory in the east?
BOLTON: You know, ultimately, I don't think you negotiate under the circumstances that are being presented to them. And I think we've -- we’ve gone through three and a half years here where neither the United States nor NATO have had an effective strategy for Ukraine to win. We've spent a lot of time making sure Russia doesn't lose. And I think the -- the danger with Trump's present position is, notwithstanding allowing the patriots to be deployed to Ukraine, he has not made any kind of commitment on continued military assistance, weapons, ammunition, and, most critically, intelligence. And that remains at risk for Zelenskyy.
KARL: I mean, he has threatened these new sanctions on Russia and he has -- he says he's going to impose the sanctions on India if they continue to buy Russian oil. You pointed out, not China. But even so, these are -- these are actually -- these are stronger steps than Biden took.
BOLTON: Well, we'll see what he actually does. In terms of tariffing Russia and exports into the United States, in 2024, the last year we have statistics, it was a whopping $3 billion, most of that fertilizer, which they sell somewhere else.
I think he -- Trump's made a real mistake, by the way, in isolating India as the only one that's had secondary sanctions imposed on it. Where are the sanctions on China, which buys a lot more oil and gas from Russia than India does?
KARL: Does -- does Trump -- you've been highly critical, obviously, of -- of Trump's foreign policy generally and specifically on this case. Does he deserve some credit, though? He's had a string of what seem to be legitimate foreign policy successes. You had the Azerbaijan-Armenia deal that was announced at the White House. He helped broker the agreement between Congo and Rwanda to stop the fighting there. He also helped to broker the agreement between Cambodia and Thailand. I mean, they're talking Nobel Peace Prize. I don't expect you to endorse the Nobel Peace Prize for Trump, but doesn't he deserve some credit for -- for all of this?
BOLTON: Well, I don’t -- I don't think what he has done materially changes the situation in -- in any of those circumstances, or several others he's mentioned, like Pakistan/India, where the Indians, not just the government, the entire country are outraged that he tried to take credit for that. In Thailand/Cambodia, he simply threatened tariffs if they didn't sign a deal. They’ve signed a deal. Nothing has changed. And the -- the real kicker in Azerbaijan and Armenia was the Russians allowing Azerbaijan to take control of Nagorno-Karabakh in the past year. So I think what Trump has done is make it clear that he wants the Nobel Peace Prize more than anything else and the way to his heart, as Pakistani chief of staff Munir found, Bibi Netanyahu found, offer to nominate him.
KARL: So I -- before you go, we're about to talk about Trump's retribution campaign we're seeing at the FBI and the Justice Department. You're obviously on his enemies list. At least Kash Patel's enemies list. Are you worried that they're going to come after you in some way? I mean, he's hinted at it before.
BOLTON: Well, I think he's already come after me and several others in withdrawing the protection that we had for --
KARL: The Iranian --
BOLTON: The Iranians for the attack on Qasem Suleimani. So I think, and I said in the -- in the new forward to the paperback edition of my book, I think it is a retribution presidency.
KARL: Yes. John Bolton, thank you for being with us.
BOLTON: Glad to be with you.
KARL: Coming up, how a former January 6th defendant who taunted Capitol Police by calling them Nazis and who shouted out, "Kill them," while the mob attacked the Capitol, now has become an official at the Justice Department. We'll talk about that with Chris Christie and Sarah Isgur, and the latest purge at the FBI. We're back in just two minutes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will expel the rogue actors and corrupt forces from our government. We will expose and very much expose their egregious crimes and severe misconduct of which was levels you've never seen anything like it. It's going to be legendary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: That was Donald Trump back in March. The rogue actors and corrupt forces he was talking about are career law enforcement officials who took part in the investigations into his conduct over the past several years. He promised retribution against his perceived enemies, and that's exactly what he is doing. As Trump said recently, "I was the hunted and now I'm the hunter."
Just this past week several senior FBI agents were fired, including former acting FBI director Brian Driscoll. I'm told Driscoll was fired because he refused to fire another agent simply because he had worked on the investigation into Trump's handling of classified documents. Now they are both gone and others, too.
Earlier this year at the Justice Department a man named Jared Wise was named senior adviser to the so-called Weaponization Working Group. Wise is a former FBI agent who was prosecuted for his role in the January 6th attack. In video obtained this week by ABC News and others, Wise can be heard calling police officers Nazi and Gestapo, and yelling, "kill them," as rioters rushed at police guarding the Capitol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JARED WISE, JANUARY 6 RIOTER: I’m former law enforcement. You're disgusting. You are the Nazi. You are the Gestapo.
(EXPLETIVE DELETED)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: During his trial earlier this year, Wise claimed his outburst was, quote, “an angry reaction” and he didn't really mean it when he yelled, "kill them."
When we asked about the video, a Department of Justice spokesperson told us, quote, "Jared Wise is a valued member of the Department of Justice, and we appreciate his contributions to our team."
Sources tell ABC News that Attorney General Pam Bondi has now tasked the weaponization working group that Jared Wise advises to investigate two of President Trump's political opponents, New York Attorney General Tish James and Senator Adam Schiff of California. Both have denied any wrongdoing and have called the claims politically motivated.
Let's bring in former Trump Justice Department spokesperson and SCOTUSBlog editor Sarah Isgur, and former New Jersey governor and federal prosecutor, Chris Christie.
Thank you both for joining us.
Chris, let me start with you. The firing of Brian Driscoll and several other FBI agents just this week prompted a harsh statement from the FBI Agents Association who called the firings unlawful. I want to read from that statement.
They said, "These agents were carrying out assignments given to them and did their jobs professionally and with integrity. This action sets a dangerous precedent. It increases our vulnerability to criminal and national security threats at home and abroad. It prioritizes division over unity, stokes anger instead of solidarity within our ranks, and threatens to chill the work of agents rather than support it.”
When Trump talked about retribution, he meant it.
CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, I was saying that going all the way back to 2023, Jon, and made clear that Donald Trump was going to do exactly what's being done, and now his folks at the Justice Department are carrying that out.
Look, there's a bigger -- bigger thing afoot here than just retribution, although retribution is part of it. It's the normalization of January 6th. And when you see the Jared Wise stuff that you just talked about and you know, the firing of Steve Jensen, who let's remember just a few weeks ago, Kash Patel said that Steve Jensen was the embodiment of what an FBI agent should be.
And now, he's been fired without cause and without -- given any reason as to why he was leaving. In addition to Brian Driscoll, who when the Trump administration came in, Kash Patel and the rest of the folks at the Justice Department made Brian Driscoll the acting director of the FBI. And now, he's been terminated and his email says -- he's been given no reason.
This is not just retribution, although that's part of it, but it's also Donald Trump's attempt to normalize January 6th, to make people think that what they saw on January 6th was not any horrible event, and that, in fact, the people that perpetrated the event were not the ones at fault, that it was law enforcement at fault.
This is something that is very dangerous going forward. But put aside the danger, Jon, it's just wrong. It's wrong, and it's personally motivated by Donald Trump.
KARL: So, you bring up Steven Jensen. He was the head just until this week of the FBI field office in Washington, fired apparently because of his role in those January 6th investigations. And you alluded to what Kash Patel said about him.
Let me play what Kash Patel said just a -- not that long ago about the guy that was just fired.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: I want the American public to realize what we did. That man was in a position where he literally fought back against the machine who was saying we want to politicize this event. Steve Jensen and other folks were promoted because they embody what the American public demands of FBI agents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: I mean, Sarah, that's Kash Patel, the FBI director, saying that the man who was just fired embodies what FBI agents should be. Who -- who is in charge over there?
SARAH ISGUR, EDITOR AT SCOTUSBLOG & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: You know, there's been this misconception the Department of Justice is supposed to be independent from the White House. It's absolutely not. Presidents are supposed to set policy priorities where we're going to put our limited prosecutorial investigative resources.
However, this sets an incredibly dangerous precedent for what those priorities can or should be. It's also incredibly ineffective as we've seen so far. You know, for this retribution tour, there's not been a lot of “there” there despite the promises he's made to his base. Just look at what happened with the Epstein investigation, such as it is.
They -- also when it comes to Brian and Kevin, they have taken men and they have madethem legends. I have seen a meme going around the bureau of a challenge coin with Brian Driscoll's face on it that says, what would Dris do? So, not only is it ineffective in terms of what they promised their base, it's ineffective in terms of what they are creating among agents and DOJ officials, who believe that their mission is being compromised.
KARL: And Chris, I'm told on Brian Driscoll that he was fired -- he wasn't given a reason apparently, but he was fired because he was asked to fire another FBI agent who had been involved, they found out, in the classified documents, the search of Mar-a-Lago. The other agent, by the way, was the pilot who flies the FBI Director on the -- on -- on his plane. That he was asked to fire that person, he refused saying he didn't do anything wrong and was told, OK, then you're fired.
CHRISTIE: Look, Jon, this is all about Donald Trump. What a shock. There's a headline for today. It's all about Donald Trump. So if you're an FBI agent who was assigned by your superiors to participate in a court-ordered search, that means you're not loyal. You're not loyal, that means you're fired. And that's it.
And it's taking them some time. We're now almost eight months into the administration. It's taking them some time to find all of these disloyal people who followed the orders they were given and awful orders in the case of the Mar-a-Lago raid, a court-ordered search warrant.
KARL: And Chris, what does it say to those agents when people like Driscoll are fired? And Jared Wise, the guy who called police officers Nazis and yelled out, kill him, is a senior advisor over at DOJ?
CHRISTIE: It means comply with the political agenda of, and personal agenda of Donald Trump or be gone. And let's face it, Sarah is absolutely right.
ISGUR: What it also means --
CHRISTIE: I served for seven years with Justice Department.
ISGUR: Chris, don't forget.
CHRISTIE: I served for seven years. OK. Go ahead, Sarah.
ISGUR: Oh, I was just going to say, don't forget, it also means that when you're given orders by this administration that it may mean you're going to get fired by the next administration. It destroys any ability for the Department of Justice to do its work because everyone's going to have to now look out for themselves, worry about if they execute that search warrant, are they going to lose their job because of it in a year?
KARL: All right. Sarah Isgur, Chris Christie, thank you both for being here. We will certainly pick this one up again. Appreciate your time.
Up next, just what was Donald Trump doing on the roof of the West Wing this week. We'll take a closer look at the ways the president is transforming the White House. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: I've been coming to this building for 65 years. And I have to say that it's never looked better. I've spent some time in the Oval Office, which really has -- it’s been transformed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: That was RFK Jr. praising Donald Trump's decorative changes at the White House six decades after Kennedy’s uncle occupied the Oval Office and his aunt, Jackie Kennedy, created the Rose Garden.
Now, halfway through his first year back in office, Trump is reshaping the federal government and the global economy and also the building at the center of it all.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL (voice over): President Trump may not have yet ushered in that golden age he keeps talking about.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (March 20, 2025): They're gold. All gold. Look.
KARL (voice over): But he sure brought a lot of gold to the Oval Office.
TRUMP (May 6, 2025): We handle it with great love, and 24 carat gold. That always helps, too.
KARL (voice over): The transformation has been gradual and unmistakable. Here is what it looked like in November when Trump visited Biden after the election. By February, some golden urns on the mantle. April, gold adornments appear on the walls. By July, it's gold everywhere.
Just this week, more scaffolding popped up, even more new gold trim appeared. The room where presidents have long struggled with the big decisions has never looked so, so, golden.
And have you seen the rose garden lately? Jackie Kennedy’s creation, the grass has now been replaced with bright white paving tiles. You might call it the Rose patio. The latest edition this week, umbrellas, just like the ones on the patio at Trump's Mar-a-Lago club in Palm Beach.
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More changes are coming. That's why President Trump ventured this week to where few presidents at the White House have gone before, the roof. Our Mary Bruce asked him the big question.
MARY BRUCE, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Mr. President, what are you doing up there?
TRUMP: Just taking a little walk.
KARL (voice over): Actually, what Trump is doing is transforming the White House, home of every president since 1800, a place where history lurks around every corner.
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT (January 2017): There's something about these steps and thinking about everybody who has walked here and all the business that's been done here.
KARL (voice over): He’s not the first to make changes. Teddy Roosevelt put in a tennis court. George H.W. Bush installed a putting green. Bill Clinton, a running track. Barack Obama added a basketball court. Michelle Obama, a vegetable garden. Although Trump quickly got rid of that.
Trump's plans, though, are much, much bigger. While he was up there on the roof --
TRUMP: Something beautiful.
KARL (voice over): He got an aerial view of the South Lawn, where he plans to build a massive new ballroom. The architectural renderings of the plan give a sense of the scale, 90,000 square feet. That's considerably bigger than the White House itself. The main building, a mere 55,000 square feet.
Donald Trump, the builder, has always believed the bigger the better, as he told our Charlie Gibson years ago.
CHARLIE GIBSON, ABC NEWS (1990): Is it necessary to build on such a scale?
TRUMP (1990): The scale, Charlie, is what brings the people, the opulence, the size.
KARL (voice over): The plan for the ballroom, which he says will cost $200 million, and be paid for with private donations, looks strikingly like the one at Mar-a-Lago. He once told “Florida Design” magazine he modeled Mar-a-Lago's ballroom after Versailles, that symbol of excess that inspired the French Revolution and didn't work out so well for its royal residents.
Trump’s fans love the changes. What would you expect? And, of course, the critics say he's destroying the place.
But just as he is radically changing America in ways he did not in his first term, Donald Trump is making changes to the White House, destined to be here long after he is gone.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL (on camera): And we're going to talk about those changes and Trump's plans for 2028 and the rest of the week's politics with Donna Brazile and Reince Priebus. That’s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you agree that the heir apparent to MAGA is J.D. Vance?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I think most likely, in all fairness. He's the vice president. I think Marco is also somebody that maybe would get together with J.D. in some form. I also think we have incredible people, some of the people on the stage right here.
So, it's too early obviously to talk about it, but certainly, he's doing a great job and he would be probably favored at this point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: All right. Joining us now, former DNC Chair Donna Brazile, and former RNC chair and former White House chief of staff to Donald Trump, Reince Priebus.
Thank you both for being -- let's pick up right there.
REINCE PRIEBUS, ABC NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah.
KARL: Reince, how'd you read that answer?
PRIEBUS: I read it as a safe answer. I read it as an answer where he didn't want to throw any shade on anyone else, but he stated the obvious.
Look, J.D. Vance has been loyal. He's got a great underdog story. It's a compelling childhood, populist, generational advantage. All of that is true, and I would -- and I -- and I think he'd be great.
But there's also there's also some risk.
(CROSSTALK)
PRIEBUS: No, there's some risk. And the risk is when you're around the president 24/7, 30 feet down the hallway, there's also a lot of opportunity for things not to go well.
So, yes, he's the favorite. I think he'd be great, but it's not over yet.
KARL: Okay. So you may not be able to give me this answer, so I'll ask you, Donna.
DONNA BRAZILE, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Okay.
KARL: The prediction, who is the first Republican who announces that he or she is running for president in 2028?
BRAZILE: I think J.D. Vance. Look, he might be the heir apparent to the MAGA movement and maybe Republicans, but like Donald Trump, he's underwater with the majority of voters in this country.
So, his unpopularity is going to hurt him unless he separates himself. And we know how difficult it is to see vice presidents separate themselves policy-wise and otherwise on the president.
KARL: He could do it on “The View”. He could go on “The View”.
BRAZILE: Well -- no, right now --
KARL: Not as underwater as the Democrats, however.
BRAZILE: But let me just say this, right for -- at this point, what I was gratified to hear and I'm rarely gratified to hear anything come out of Donald Trump mouth is that he's not running. He ruled himself out by hinting, by hinting.
PRIEBUS: No.
KARL: Now, wait a minute. Can I play something --
BRAZILE: I might be exaggerating a little bit, but Donald Trump is not going to seek a third term. That's good news.
KARL: Can I play another piece of --
PRIEBUS: Good news for you all because you might have a chance.
BRAZILE: Well, good news for the Constitution, too.
KARL: Can I -- can I play another piece of little notice tape this -- this week? This was something that was released on the -- I believe the Facebook page of the president of Azerbaijan.
BRAZILE: Oh.
KARL: Let's take a look. Do we have the tape?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You know, you're not allowed to run. So, I mean, because everyone -- I'm 28 points higher than anybody. Everybody wants me to run but --
ILHAM ALIYEV, PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN: Including us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PRIEBUS: See, even he wants Donald Trump to run.
KARL: So yeah. So Trump's got the endorsement of the president of Azerbaijan. Reince, you really think that, I mean, I'm just -- the reason why I asked Donna the question of who announced this first. I mean, you can't announce you are running for president until Trump's giving you the blessing, right?
PRIEBUS: That's right. I mean, this is going to be all the way to the end until Donald Trump says go. And when he says go, they will go.
KARL: And the minute he says go, the attention is not on him. So how's he going to say go?
PRIEBUS: I -- because he's going to be the person to give the go ahead to go. I mean, he's going to be in control, and Donald Trump's going to be in control for a long time beyond2028.
BRAZILE: We don't know that. We don't know that. Look, it will be a blessing.
PRIEBUS: And he has been ever since from four years prosecutions (ph).
(CROSSTALK)
BRAZILE: It will be a blessing -- it's going to be a blessing for whoever he decides to endorse. But I also think it's going to be a huge -- it's going to be a huge barrier for that person to become the next president. Remember, 75 million Americans
PRIEBUS: With who?
(CROSSTALK)
BRAZILE: Well, we don't know. It could be --
PRIEBUS: Who are you going to put up?
BRAZILE: It could be -- we got several members (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
PRIEBUS: They are all underwater. They're all underwater.
KARL: Before we leave Trump, Just very quickly, all those changes to the Oval Office, all the gold and all that, how did you keep that stuff out of the overall process (ph)?
(CROSSTALK)
PRIEBUS: Because honestly, at that point, I'm not sure we knew all the buttons that we could press. I mean, I think the president has figured that out. And look, the rose garden was a muddy mess. I mean, you've been out there, I've been out there. Women can hardly walk out there. And who -- I'm --
KARL: I think the Rose Garden was pretty beautiful.
PRIEBUS: The East Wing --
(CROSSTALK)
BRAZILE: I agree.
KARL: Anyway, let me get onto the --
PRIEBUS: The East Wing is empty space.
BRAZILE: And by the way, I want to hear from the First Lady. She put a lot of work in renovating the garden itself. She put a lot of work in the White House. I really would like to hear her views on this expansion of the White House. The other thing, Jon, like the wall which we are about to put -- Mexico is not paying. It's in the big, beautiful, ugly betrayal bill. We are still going to pay for that wall. I believe at the end of the day, we're going to pay for all of this so-called gold.
PRIEBUS: No.
BRAZILE: And by the way, where's the golden era?
PRIEBUS: It comes out of the National Mall Trust or the White House Historical Association or private donation.
BRAZILE: Yeah, right.
PRIEBUS: It's true.
KARL: All right. We'll see, that's what the president said. So let me ask you before we go, the battle of redistricting in Texas. Those Democrats are going to have to come home at some point. That plan is going to be approved. Is Gavin Newsom going to be able to pull off redistricting in California to compensate?
BRAZILE: Well, it's going to be tough. I mean, because his state will come back on August 22nd. They got five days. It's going to be rough. But look, remember the purpose of calling this, this so-called special session, was to deal with the flooding. 137 people died, 135 -- 137, two are missing.
The point is they're using this for a political power grab. We have -- this country has been redistrict enough, gerrymandering needs to stop. Only 37 seats in the last election was competitive, 37 out of 435. This country already looks like it's been packed to give one party a partisan advantage.
PRIEBUS: (Inaudible) wait a second.
KARL: And -- but Reince, if you can take your partisan hat off for just one second.
PRIEBUS: Yeah.
BRAZILE: You can't take it off.
(LAUGH)
KARL: I mean, I mean, this is not good for our political system. Well, whether it's the Democrats who Lord knows, do it and have done it arguably more effectively than the Republicans in the past or the Republicans, this is not good.
PRIEBUS: Well, I -- look, there are no competitive seats anyway. What do we have? About 435 Congressional seats, we've got maybe 10 percent in play anyway. The truth is, is that when a state has total control, the voters have given that state legislature total control. And one of the things they can do is redraw the maps, as long as it's not unconstitutional. And you -- Democrats do it all the time. Let's not -- let's not be hypocritical. Everyone does it.
KARL: OK. All right. Let's not be hypocritical. We will end on that.
BRAZILE: But let's not dis a franchise, people.
KARL: We got -- we've got some more business to do.
Coming up, I'm going to take you inside the secret vault at the International Spy Museum. Trust me, Donna, Reince, you're not going to want to miss this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KARL: Since it opened in 2002, the International Spy Museum has unmasked the covert world of espionage and spy craft, with nearly 1,000 artifacts on public display. But there's far more hidden in the climate-controlled vault behind the museum's exhibits, and we got to see it for ourselves.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I admire your luck, Mister --
SEAN CONNERY, ACTOR: Bond. James Bond.
KARL (voice-over): Long before Sean Connery first delivered that line in "Dr. Noe," spy craft has captured the imagination. From Alfred Hitchcock's 1959 film "North by Northwest," to the "Mission Impossible" franchise starring Tom Cruise.
For more than two decades the International Spy Museum in Washington has collected and displayed the stories and the gadgets of real spies. The approximately 1,000 items in the museum's exhibits are part of the largest collection of espionage artifacts on public display. But behind closed doors --
LAURA HICKEN, INTERNATIONAL SPY MUSEUM COLLECTIONS MANAGER: You are now in the International Spy Museum's vault.
KARL: There's more. A lot more. Collections manager Lauren Hicken gave us an up close and personal tour of the museum's new vault, putting on gloves to protect the items and yourself.
HICKEN: It's the International Spy Museum, so we have things that have had poison. We have things that are weapons.
KARL: Oh, OK.
HICKEN: Yes.
KARL: OK.
HICKEN: And of course --
KARL: Poison?
HICKEN: A little poison.
KARL (voice-over): Nearly a decade ago, the museum received a donation of roughly 5,000 items from Board Member and prolific spy gadget collector H. Keith Milton. For years, the thousands of items were stored in an off-site warehouse, perhaps a bit like the Arc of the Covenant in "Raiders of the Lost Ark." Eventually, the museum made the decision of bring the treasure trove here.
HICKEN: In 2022 we decided it was going to stay on site. It was just too much of an asset. Too valuable.
KARL: The museum completed the move this year. In this very room there are 4,000 books, uniforms that date back hundreds of years, an enigma machine used by the Nazis in World War II to send coded messages.
HICKEN: They thought it was unbreakable. We now know it was not.
KARL: There are hundreds of cameras, like this one, designed to be attached to a pigeon and many, many inside purses. Some not so stealth.
HICKEN: A little less subtle.
KARL: Yes.
KARL (voice-over): But others much harder to spot.
HICKEN: Where is the lens on this one?
KARL: Up here? No?
HICKEN: No. No.
KARL: OK. I'm at a loss. Where?
HICKEN: OK. It's in the V.
KARL: In the V.
HICKEN: Of the service.
KARL: Service. Oh, that is good.
KARL (voice-over): Out in the museum, visitors can view an exhibit dedicated to Tony Mendez, another board member. The CIA operative and master of disguise was played by Ben Affleck in the 2012 Academy Award-winning best picture "Argo."
HICKEN: We've got examples of the teeth molds that they would use to make fake teeth.
KARL: Right.
HICKEN: -- to help disguise you. So it's -- it's everything you could possibly need.
KARL (voice-over): Up there, the family room couch that belonged to Robert Hanssen, the notorious FBI agent who betrayed America by selling secrets to the Soviet Union. And that's not the only furniture in here.
KARL: It doesn't look very comfortable. It's --
HICKEN: No, it was not built for comfort. It was built for secrecy.
KARL (voice-over): Easy-to-miss clear furniture is from the East German Embassy in Rome.
HICKEN: The idea is you cannot bug this furniture. You cannot hide a listening device anywhere in this furniture.
KARL So, the East Germans made their embassy personnel sit in these things?
HICKEN: If you were having a secret enough meeting.
KARL: Yeah. Yeah.
HICKEN: Yes.
KARL: All right. Yeah.
HICKEN: The room that these were in was actually also contained this tiny clear, little -- it looks like an oddly shaped shed.
KARL: It looks like a cone of silence.
HICKEN: It basically is a cone of silence.
KARL (voice-over): Some of the museum's most historically significant artifacts are in here, like these original sketches from the trial of the infamous Soviet spies, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. And this poison pen on loan from South Korea.
HICKEN: This was actually taken off a North Korean assassin who was arrested in South Korea. The pen clicks a certain number of ways to make this poison needle come out, and it had a paralytic in it that would ultimately kill you.
DESMOND LLEWELYN AS Q, GOLDENEYE: A pen. This is a Class 4 grenade.
KARL (voice-over): Q seen here in 1990 five's GoldenEye was the caretaker of James Bond's top secret gadgets.
KARL: This place reminds me of Q's like headquarters.
KARL (voice-over): Chris Costa, the Museum's Executive Director knows spy craft.
COL. CHRISTOPHER COSTA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL SPY MUSEUM: Frankly, the gadgetry is really, really important of this business.
KARL: Yeah.
COSTA: And it's part of trade craft.
KARL: Yeah.
COSTA: It's part of the tactics.
KARL (voice-over): The retired colonel spent 25 years as an army intelligence officer. He's got drawers of his own in the vault, filled with items from his career.
COSTA: Jambiya dagger from Yemen.
KARL (voice-over): The artifacts in the vault aren't on display for the public, but by moving them to the museum, they are no longer out of reach.
COSTA: We can study it. We can look at it. We can pull it out, maintain it. As long as the museum's here, these pieces of history will be protected. But it allows access --
KARL: Yeah.
COSTA: -- so we can continue to educate the public on this shadowy world. That's what we do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL: Our thanks again to the International Spy Museum. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KARL: And that is all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Have a great day.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)