A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, April 20, 2025 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.
JONATHAN KARL, ABC “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR: And Senator Van Hollen joins me now.
So, you had this extraordinary trip to El Salvador. When you got there, you demanded or you asked to see Abrego Garcia, you were flatly denied. And then suddenly, they brought him to see you.
Explain what -- what -- what happened?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): Well, you're right. I was denied by the vice president. I then next the next day tried to drive to CECOT prison, which is this notorious prison.
KARL: Yeah.
VAN HOLLEN: Soldiers waved me to the side of the road about three kilometers out. I said, what are you doing? They said they were given orders not to allow me to proceed.
KARL: Not even to get within miles of CECOT.
VAN HOLLEN: Yeah, three kilometers. I asked them if they knew anything about the health of Abrego Garcia, they said they know nothing about it.
We had a number of press conferences in El Salvador pointing out that they were complicit in this illegal scheme with the Trump administration and pointing out that it's illegal under international law to prevent any communication with a -- with a prisoner.
KARL: His family hadn't heard from -- nobody had any contact for -- for weeks.
VAN HOLLEN: That's right. This is a guy who was just abducted off the streets of Maryland, put in a couple airplanes, didn't know he was going to El Salvador and ends up in the most notorious prison.
KARL: How did you end up meeting with him then? What happened?
VAN HOLLEN: I think at some point, the president of El Salvador realized it was looking really bad to have this America, this person who had been absconded from America, from the streets of Maryland in one of their prisons and not able to communicate. So, I ended up getting a call saying, we will bring him to your hotel and that's how we met.
KARL: So, did you walk into a trap, though? I mean, he -- they bring him to your hotel, he's in the civilian clothes. And you met with him. We -- we -- we -- saw the images that the -- you put out the picture of meeting with him, you know, the beginning of the meeting. You're sitting there. You're -- you -- you're drinking water and talking to the guy in the hotel lobby, I assume. And then at some point, they bring in these like, you know, glasses that look like margarita glasses?
VAN HOLLEN: No, it was -- it wasn't a trap. My goal was -- my goal was to meet with him.
KARL: Yeah.
VAN HOLLEN: And make sure I could tell his wife and family he was okay. That was my goal. And I achieved that goal.
You're absolutely right that the Salvadoran authorities tried to deceive people. They tried to make it look like he was in paradise. They actually wanted to have the meeting by the hotel pool originally.
KARL: Really?
VAN HOLLEN: Absolutely, absolutely. We had to negotiate that. They -- they wanted to put me right overlooking the pool. In fact, if you had a different angle on the camera shot, you would see the pool.
KARL: Because they did write -- the -- Bukele put out a statement saying, miraculously risen from the death camps and torture and sipping margaritas with you.
I mean, they were really trying to make you look like you were hanging out with somebody that they say is a -- is a -- is a -- is a gang member.
VAN HOLLEN: Look, this is a person who the United States courts have determined was illegally taken from the United States, and my whole purpose here is to make sure that we observe the rule of law, the Constitution, and due process rights.
Bukele -- yes, he tried to make it look like somehow this was -- Abrego Garcia was enjoying himself. All of that was a setup, right? He had the waiters there. People ordered the waiters to bring these things that look like margaritas.
KARL: Yeah.
VAN HOLLEN: It just goes to show the lengths that Bukele and Trump will go to try to deceive people about what this case is all about. What this case is all about is simply complying with the Supreme Court order to facilitate his return and make sure he gets due process.
KARL: So what did Abrego Garcia tell you?
VAN HOLLEN: He told me about the trauma he had been experiencing, both in terms of the abduction and the fact that he was originally sent to CECOT, which is this notorious prison.
KARL: Yeah.
VAN HOLLEN: He told me how much he missed his wife and his kids. He specifically mentioned his 5-year-old boy who has autism because his -- that boy had been in the car with him when U.S. agents had stopped them and handcuffed him and then taken him away.
So, he described all that and he told me that he had moved recently to a new prison facility.
So those are some of the highlights.
KARL: I want -- I want you to listen to something that Gavin Newsom had to say about all the attention this case has gotten.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: This is the distraction of the day, the art of distraction. This is the debate they want. This is their 80/20 issue as they've described it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: Is -- is he right about the politics of this? I mean, the Republicans have taken great joy in portraying you as somebody who is defending somebody who's in this country illegally, they say as a gang member, and, you know, and -- and they're saying that they're trying to just enforce the laws.
VAN HOLLEN: Jon, I don't think it's ever wrong to protect the Constitution and protect due process rights. I think conservative and libertarians when they think about this case, the idea of somebody being deprived of their liberty and actually in a foreign prison without due process of law, that's something we should all fight for.
I think what Americans are tired of is people who want to put their finger to the wind to see what's going on. And I would say that anyone that's not prepared to defend the constitutional rights of one man when they threaten the constitutional rights of all doesn't deserve to lead.
KARL: As you know, the president himself has been attacking you by pointing out some of the aspects of Abrego Garcia's record, including the fact that his wife had an order of protection against him in 2021, and -- and alleged some pretty serious allegations of abuse, and even that that he had -- he had detained her.
Are you concerned about your defense of somebody -- obviously, everybody in this country -- even those undocumented immigrants have rights. But are you concerned about standing so forcefully with somebody that has, you know, at least a questionable record?
VAN HOLLEN: I am not defending the man. I'm defending the rights of this man to due process, and the Trump administration has admitted in court that he was wrongfully detained and wrongfully deported. My mission and my purpose is to make sure that we uphold the rule of law because if we take it away for -- from him, we do jeopardize it for everybody else.
And I do want to point out, Karl, yes, the Trump administration is trying to change the story. They're trying to distract attention. Here's where they should put their facts: they should put it before the court. They should put up or shut up in court, because Judge Xinis, who's the district court judge in this case, said and I quote, they put no evidence linking Abrego Garcia to MS-13 or to any other terrorist activity, unquote. She says that a couple times in her decision.
So, Mr. President and Republicans and anybody involved with this, take your facts to court. Don't put everything out on social media.
As to his wife, his wife is the one who is asking us all to bring him home, so his rights can be respected.
KARL: And, in fact, even if he is a gang member, that doesn't mean you don't have rights, due process rights.
VAN HOLLEN: Well, exactly, but again, the place to litigate that is in the courts and they've not put the evidence before the judge in the case. So, again, put up or shut up in court.
KARL: Let me ask, you also, we -- we heard from Tom Homan which we'll be playing shortly, he was very critical of you not surprisingly and said, you know, that he was -- he was alarmed that you would go to El Salvador to meet with an alleged gang member. He didn't say alleged -- but a gang member, and when you have not taken a single visit to the border over the past four years or shown concerns about what was happening at the border.
VAN HOLLEN: So I read that --
KARL: Your response?
VAN HOLLEN: -- I read that transcript.
KARL: Yeah.
VAN HOLLEN: I don't have time to go through it all. He is lying through his teeth on many places in that -- in that record. And I have been actually fighting MS-13, probably longer than Donald Trump ever uttered the name MS-13. For 20 years in this region, I helped stand up the anti -- you know, gang -- anti-gang task force.
But the idea that you can't defend people's rights under the Constitution and fight MS-13 and gang violence is a very dangerous idea. That's the idea the president wants to put out. That's why they're spreading all these lies.
Take your -- take your information to the court because you clearly have not done that, and respect this person's constitutional rights and follow the order of the Supreme Court, which they're defying as we speak.
KARL: All right. Senator Van Hollen, thank you for joining us.
VAN HOLLEN: Thank you, Jon.
KARL: Coming up, I'll ask White House Border czar Tom Homan if he agrees with late Justice Anthony Scalia that constitutional rights apply to every person in the United States, regardless of their alleged crime or legal status. We're back in two minutes.
KARL: Senator Van Hollen is -- obviously got a chance to meet with him, but he had to travel to El Salvador to get any information. Is (sic) that concern you at all? I mean, these are people sent by -- I mean, in his case, sent by the United States, and not even a U.S. Senator, in his case, could get any information about his whereabouts, or the condition of his incarceration, without actually going down and making the trip to El Salvador himself?
TOM HOMAN: Well, he obviously knew his whereabouts, because he went there to see him. But you know what -- what’s -- what bothers me more than that is a U.S. Senator traveled to El Salvador on taxpayer dime to meet with an MS-13 gang member, public safety threat, terrorist. I mean, in the meantime, the day before he traveled, an illegal alien was arrested for murder, was released to the streets rather than honoring an ICE detainer in his very own state.
What concerns me is Van Hollen never went to the border the last four years under Joe Biden, when he had a 600% increase in sex trafficking in women and children. You have a record number of known inspected terrorists crossing that border. You had a quarter of a million Americans die from fentanyl overdose because of the open border. You had over 4,000 illegal aliens died making that journey, which is an historic record. What shocks me is he's remained silent on the travesty that happened on the southern border. Many people died, thousands of people died. I met with hundreds of Angel moms and dads who buried their children that were murdered by illegal aliens. How many Angel moms and dads has he met in the state of -- in the state of Maryland? That's what concerns me.
KARL: He says that he has done this because the issue here is due process, and it's following a court order. That -- you know, the Supreme Court has said that the administration needs to facilitate his return so he could get through, have his chance at due process.
HOMAN: I think, and I understand the facilitate – but he's also in the custody, he's a citizen, and a national of the country, so El Salvador would certainly have to cooperate in that. But again, I'm out of the loop on that. I'm not an attorney. I'm not litigating this case. We'll do whatever the, you know, the law says we have to do. What I think -- I stand by the fact I think we did the right thing here. We removed a public safety threat, a national security threat, a violent gang member from the United States. ICE intelligence says he’s an MS-13 gang member. A confidential information says he’s an MS-13 gang member. The country of El Salvador says he's an MS-13 gang member. I think he's exactly where he should be.
KARL : But you said that El Salvador would have to cooperate. You have no doubt that if President Trump wanted him returned, that he could ask President Bukele to return him, right? I mean, I mean --
TOM HOMAN: I am not involved in discussion.
KARL: President Trump could make this happen.
HOMAN: I can't comment on something I don't know.
KARL: But what do you think? I mean, you know President Trump --
[CROSSTALK]
HOMAN: -- I can't comment on discussions --
KARL: -- you've talked about how, you know, he can get things done. I mean, if he wanted the guy returned, he could get them returned, right?
HOMAN: I do, I'm not going to comment on conversations I'm not a part of. I don't know what conversations are having, what conversations – who's having what conversation, what officials. I'm not in the loop on that.
JON KARL: So more broadly, let me ask you, I know you're a law guy. You've sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution. You did that through your entire career. The general principle I want to ask you is, do you -- you agree that the Constitution extends -- those constitutional rights that we all have extend to every person in the United States? Every person --
HOMAN: Yeah.
KARL: -- no matter what crime they're accused of, or no matter their legal status?
HOMAN: And we have followed the Constitution. We have followed the law. I am confident that everything we've done is follow laws within the constitutional constructs, absolutely.
KARL: And so that right of due process is something – the Fifth Amendment right of due process extends to everybody who would be deported – they have the chance to have a hearing on this?
HOMAN: The length of due process is not the same under the Alien Enemies Act. That's why the Alien Enemies Act was created. President Trump invoked the authorities he had under the Alien Enemies Act, an act written and passed by Congress and signed by a President. We're using the laws on the books, the statues on the books, to secure the border and remove significant public safety threats and national security threats to this country.
KARL: But let me, let me get more specific on this. The Supreme Court has long held that constitutional rights extend to every person in the United States. Justice Scalia, the majority opinion that he wrote back in 1993 wrote, [GFX] “it is well established that the Fifth Amendment entitles aliens to due process in law -- of law in deportation proceedings.”
Are you saying that by invoking the Alien Enemies Act that undocumented immigrants are not entitled to those due process rights under the Fifth Amendment?
HOMAN: What I'm saying, the procedure under the Alien Enemies Act is less than it is during like a Title 8 removal proceeding, and we're following the rules of the Alien Enemies Act. Again, I think this administration has followed the law. They're using statutes enacted by Congress, signed by a president, to remove the terrorists from this country. I'm not saying, you know -- I'm not saying, I'm not arguing right here that nobody should get due process. I'm just saying there's a different process under the Alien Enemies Act, and less of a process than you see through Title 8.
KARL: Let me ask you, do you have any qualms about sending people to that notorious prison in El Salvador with no assurance that they will ever have a chance to get out? People that have no record, have not been convicted of any violent crimes. Do you have any qualms about that?
HOMAN: I believe we're removing public safety threats and terrorists -- designated terrorists -- to that prison in El Salvador. Tren de Aragua, MS-13 are designated terrorist organizations. What you don’t know, what most readers don't know, they haven't seen or experienced what I've seen in my 40 years. I started working in 1984. I've talked to young girls as young as nine who were raped by members of these gang cartels. I've held dead bodies throughout my career. I've talked to hundreds of Angel moms and dads whose children were, were killed and brutally murdered by members of MS 13 who just didn't kill him, they mutilated them, they tortured them. So if people wore my shoes for the last 40 years, and seen the tragedy -- travesties I've seen, they would understand that the worst of the worst need to be sent to a prison like that, because we got to protect American citizens, we got to put to protect this country.
KARL: And you're saying there's no mistakes, no mistakes that everybody sent to this prison, again with no guarantee of any right to, to have a chance to challenge their imprisonment, any prospect of release?
[CROSSTALK]
KARL: -- and they didn’t – none of these people, as you've acknowledged, have gone through a full trial.
HOMAN: You need to read the Alien Enemies Act. We follow the Alien Enemies Act, and you're talking like it's a Title 8 removal. This isn't a Title 8 removal. That’s a different procedure written –
KARL: Yeah, so you’re acknowledging –
HOMAN: -- written into law by Congress. Alien Enemies Act.
KARL: So, no extended proceedings, no chance to prove their innocence. Somebody's got a bad tattoo.
HOMAN: I’m telling you there’s a difference.
[CROSS TALK]
KARL: Somebody’s been accused -- I mean, you acknowledge tattoos are part of the calculation here. I mean you might have a tattoo --
HOMAN: That’s one factor of many factors. I worked – have you, have you been in an alien gang squad? Cause I have. Tattoos are one of many factors that's going to determine someone’s in a gang. That's not the only one. You can't say, okay, tattoo gang member, no, there's other [unintelligible] added to that tattoo. Tattoo’s one factor that adds to other factors that makes that determination.
What I'm saying is you can't ignore a tattoo. That's, that's one more factor that leads you to believe maybe it's a gang member. It's just not based on tattoos. It's based on a lot of other things, but tattoos one of many. But no one's removed just because of a tattoo.
KARL: In other words, the Alien Enemies Act means you can grab somebody and you can deport them without an extended hearing, because you have labeled them a terrorist, because you, because you’ve said -- you've determined that somebody is a member of the gang, and therefore they don't have to go through the extended process of the, of the opportunity to have a full hearing. That's what you're saying. I mean, let's just be clear.
HOMAN: I'm saying we're following the laws of this country.
KARL: OK.
HOMAN: There's a different procedure for each one. We're doing things within the frame of the law. We're doing things legally.
KARL: OK.
HOMAN: I stand by that. Now, again, I'm not a constitutional scholar. I'm not going to argue this in court. That's what the Department of Justice does, but we're -- I'm sitting here today, thinking we've done the right thing for this nation, following the laws and the Constitution of this country.
KARL : All right. Tom Homan, the Trump administration's border czar. Thank you for joining us this morning.
HOMAN: Thank you.